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Episode transcript
HOST (ANDIE CROSSAN)
Hey State of Play listeners. We’ve got another bonus episode for you.
Since this pod looks at the influence of sport, whether it be through politics, power or influence, we have a couple of things that happened this month that we wanted to unpack.
Last episode we touched on the FIFA Club World Cup.
It made news recently when President Trump was greeted by a chorus of boos as he walked onto the field after the final match in East Rutherford, New Jersey.
CROWD
[Booing]
He seemed to crash the trophy ceremony – hanging out on the podium when Chelsea players lifted the cup.
The boos of the crowd are unlikely to dampen Trump’s enthusiasm.
He’s all in on soccer. At least FIFA.
The president is even head of the White House Task Force for both this recently concluded Club World Cup and next summer’s FIFA Men’s World Cup.
Coming up on this bonus episode, we will dig deeper into the origins of the FIFA Club World Cup, the bromance between Trump and FIFA head Gianni Infantino – and we will also look back at how one of the tournament’s top teams, Paris St. Germain went from perennial underachiever, to world class. All with the backing of the Qatari government.
I’m your host Andie Crossan and this is State of Play.
So now it’s over. Chelsea wins the trophy and goes home with the big prize money – the question remains – even for soccer fans – why hold a Club World Cup during the scorching heat of summer with half empty stadiums.
To get the story behind it all, I called up Nick McGeehan.
He’s the co-director of Fair Square, an organization focused on sport and human rights.
NICK MCGEEHAN
Now the reason for this, this tournament is pretty obvious. FIFA generates money in four year cycles, so the money spinner for the organization is the men’s World Cup, typically. Now it has women’s World Cups, but they aren’t quite as little. So the men’s World Cup happens every four years and they make a ton of money out of it, but for the rest of the time, they’re not making any money at all. In fact, they’re losing money. So they are trying to generate another. Money spinner and the Club World Cup is the way that they want to do that. It also coincides with Saudi Arabia’s interest in soccer and in sport generally. Saudi Arabia is really very focused on getting heavily involved in football, and the organization through which it wants to pursue its interest is FIFA. So Saudi Arabia is effectively funding this ClubWorld Cup. And in doing so, it’s sort of helping along the commercial and political ambitions of the FIFA president, Gianni Infantino. FIFA clearly decided that they wanted this to be the biggest tournament, you know, a great spectacle, something that would impress President Trump, for example. But again, that speaks to the fact that this is, this is not about football, this is not about the game as a whole and the vitality of the game. It’s about show, spectacle, money and power and here FIFA has made, not a cataclysmic misjudgment, but a clear misjudgment.
ANDIE
So help me to connect the dots between the interests of the Saudi Kingdom, and FIFA, and a club tournament in the US.
NICK
OK. Yeah, those are interesting dots to join. So. Let’s go back a few years, to the murder of a journalist, to Jamal Khashoggi, was a Saudi journalist who was murdered, allegedly, and with credible evidence supporting the involvement of the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman. Suddenly Saudi Arabia found itself a pariah state, and, and, and this was something that was inconsistent with the economic development and model that they wanted.
The way that they decided that they could rehabilitate their image or one of the ways they could rehabilitate their image was through sport. Straight after this, Saudi Arabia suddenly started investing vast amounts of money in sport. And the results are, are all around us. Saudi Arabia now effectively owns and runs the sport of golf to all intents and purposes. It is invested in all manner of sports, through sponsoring, through hosting, and of course the, the greatest prize in all this is soccer.
They knew that Gianni Infantino, the FIFA president, wanted a club World Cup. They knew that. His power, his political power within the organization would be solidified and entrenched if there was a successful World Cup, and so they’ve effectively funded it. The $1 billion prize dollar fund for this is coming from Saudi Arabia because they are providing the broadcasting revenue for this, in the run up to the tournament, there was a lack of appetite from broadcasters for providing rights money for it. In fact, some broadcasters were offering to pay £0 or $0 effectively saying, we’ll broadcast this for you, but we’ll broadcast it for free. Then along came an organization called the DAZN and said that they were going to pay $1 billion to broadcast the tournament, and they would make it free to air, which means they would not recoup any of that investment.
ANDIE
I think I can guess where DAZN comes from.
NICK
Exactly. Now this makes no commercial sense, right? DAZN, which has actually lost billions of dollars in the last few years, suddenly says it’s going to lose a further $1 billion. Well, shortly after this announcement, a Saudi Arabia entity linked to the Saudi Public Investment fund announced that it was going to make an investment to the tune of $1 billion. That’s, that’s how those dots you referred to all join up.
ANDIE
So you’ve written, FIFA is fast becoming a handmaiden to the authoritarians, shaping a bleak new world. So my next question is why?
NICK
Well here’s the theory, right, mega sporting events are not necessarily all that popular and they’re not all that popular in democracies. So we saw in South Africa in 2010, we saw in Brazil in 2014, populations aren’t happy about their government spending vast amounts of money on white elephant stadiums. FIFA needs this money. They need the money from post organizations to solidify their power and to keep running the game. Autocracies are a great way of doing that. You know, dictators don’t have to respond to taxpayers, they don’t have to justify the decisions they take, and they can help themselves to the money that their their country produces, so that I think is why they want to be closer to dictators because increasingly democracies, around the world don’t really want to give them the money that they need. And yes, it is a huge problem for FIFA as an organization, but FIFA isn’t accountable to anyone. There’s nobody that’s really holding that organization accountable. The closest that anyone came to doing that was back in 2015 when the US Department of Justice filed charges against FIFA.
REPORTER
The fourteen defendants charged in the indictment we are unsealing today include high ranking officials of FIFA, leaders of regional and other governing bodies under the FIFA umbrella, and sports marketing executives who, according to the indictment paid millions of dollars in bribes and kickbacks to obtain …
NICK
But that wasn’t particularly helpful in, you know, in reforming the organization. So for them, they can do what they want, but the problem for the sport as a whole is that the sport is being devalued both on the pitch and off the pitch, and I think that’s what people should really be very concerned about.
ANDIE
How do you see this playing out next summer when the World Cup is going to be in Canada, USA, and Mexico?
NICK
Yeah, it’s a really good question and, and things are deteriorating so fast, in the United States right now. That it feels like the the answer I give to that could be different next week to the one I give now. I, I certainly don’t think anyone would have anticipated at the start of the year. That We would be in a situation where a FIFA World Cup puts the millions of fans who travel to it in harm’s way. And that is the case right now, you know, the US immigration policies are so draconian. Detention facilities are so appalling. The risk of deportation to El Salvador prisons is real, and so it’s quite a perilous situation.
On the other hand, you know, you’ve got Gianni Infantino spending half his time in the Oval Office cozying up to Donald Trump. So, it really looks like the sports washing World Cup, par excellence, you know? It’s like this is sports washing in real time, and, and that is very clear, I think what Infantino is offering to Trump right now. He’s like, as you continue down this dark authoritarian path, I will be behind you.
ANDIE
Are there any points of hope for you?
NICK
Yeah, I do actually. I mean, I don’t think I’ve known for my optimism, but, but I actually am quite optimistic. I mean, as someone who’s worked on lost human rights causes for a lot of my working career, this, this is, this is different. People care about sport. It matters to them and I think they care when it is misgoverned. There are certain people who care about evictions in Rio de Janeiro or housing issues in L.A. or worker abuse issues in Qatar. And there are others who just care about how the sport is very clearly being abused and exploited and manipulated and denigrated in front of their eyes. I think the people who love sport are fans, but fans are also politicians and fans are journalists. So all of the people who have a voice and who have influence, I can express that, and I think the job for people like us is, is to make sure that there is something to call for. You know, FIFA is not some immutable organization that can never be reformed. Of course it can be reformed. You know, rotten empires fall and FIFA is very clearly a rotten empire. I think what we’re seeing right now is, is almost the sort of high point of misgovernance. And I think what we may see in the next coming years is mass disaffection and frustration with the way the game is being governed. And at that point, I think what we need to do is provide alternatives to people and say, well, if you don’t like this, don’t accept it and demand that your political leaders push for reform of this organization and return sport to the people in the communities that it’s supposed to serve.
ANDIE
Are there other folks besides Saudi that we should really be looking at right now?
NICK
Yeah, yeah, I think we should be wary of a lot of states right now. Under Infantino’s presidency, power has been centralized, you know, under him, and they’ve sort of become like an elite PR organization for authoritarian states. So any autocracy or any dictator worth his salt, looking at how he can. Or ways in which he can maintain his power and burnish his image automatically is going to look to an organization like FIFA because they know that by providing that organization with money there are very clear benefits that flow from that. So Trump and the Saudis are the most obvious examples and the ones that the ones that you can point to very easily. But like you said, all of the other Gulf states will be, will be lining up behind Saudi Arabia to see what they can get out of FIFA or any other sporting organizations that could be similarly manipulated, So it’s it’s not just them, but they certainly are the ones that that give you the most cause for concern right now.
ANDIE
That’s really helpful. Thank you so much, Nick. I really appreciate your time and helping unpack all of this for me.
NICK
Yeah, no worries. Thank you very much for having me on.
ANDIE
If you are a fan of Paris St. Germain, or PSG as it’s known, well let me start by offering my condolences.
PSG almost had it all – they won three trophies in French soccer this past season, and a long awaited Champions League title as the top European club team. And they made it to the FIFA Club World Cup final…
But this is not ESPN and I’m not here to give you sports analysis.
The reason we are going to talk about PSG is something Nick McGeehan mentioned.
One of those Gulf States that Nick was referring to is Qatar. Like the Saudis, Qatar is accumulating power and influence at every level of the game, and they hosted the 2022 FIFA Men’s World Cup.
And if you’re a fan of PSG then you probably know they also own your team.
To talk more about PSG and how Qatar buying the team fourteen years ago shaped its trajectory, I’m joined by a fan.
Zach Gaouad is with me today. Hi Zach, how are you doing?
ZACH GAOUAD
It’s great to be hear, thank you.
ANDIE
Now Zach, you are here with me on the campus of the University of British Columbia where you are a graduate student in French studies. You are also a journalist and working with the Global Reporting Centre this summer. Okay, so you’re going to lay it out for me. What does PSG mean to you?
ZACH
So, I grew up in a town called Saint-Germain. That’s the S-G in PSG. And as a kid I would always go and get the player’s autographs. And so I would say I’m a big fan.
ANDIE
So you’ve been following their journey for many, many years?
ZACH
Absolutely, yep.
ANDIE
Okay, so for those who may be listening who aren’t super familiar with European soccer, let me lay out the context. In terms of global stature, financial power, cultural influence, I think of big brands like the Dallas Cowboys, or New York Yankees, or maybe the Los Angeles Lakers. In a European soccer context, where does PSG sit amongst these?
ZACH
So, we just won, PSG just won the UEFA Champions League at the end of May, which is arguably the biggest tournament in all of soccer, except for this new Club World Cup that has come into the mix. If it wasn’t for that, I would say PSG would be at the top of global club soccer right now.
ANDIE
And again, since we’re not doing sports analysis right now, we’re really trying to dig into the inner workings of how politics and sport come together. And that’s the backstory of PSG because it wasn’t always this powerhouse team, right?
ZACH
No it wasn’t, and what changed, what absolutely changed the trajectory of PSG was the purchase of the club in 2011 by Qatar, which brought the club to the powerhouse it is today.
When I was in Paris earlier this summer, I spoke with fans from all over the world about their love for PSG and just how excited they are about all the trophies they’ve won this season. And if there’s one thing I’ve learned from all that, it’s that there’s a lot more behind the team’s big wins.
CROWD
[Cheering]
ZACH
This is a PSG bar on a match night. It’s in the 14th arrondissement of Paris. The crowd is going crazy and the fans lose their minds at the first PSG goal in an early round of the FIFA Club World Cup.
This team used to struggle a lot, but their fortunes turned during a meeting in 2010 that happened on the other side of Paris at the Elysee, the French presidential palace.
JEAN-BAPTISTE GUÉGAN
The famous dinner between Nicolas Sarkozy and the Qatari Emir Tamim-al-Thani was extraordinary.
ZACH
That’s Jean-Baptiste Guégan. He teaches geopolitics and sports at Sciences Po in Paris.
JEAN-BAPTISTE
At the beginning it was supposed to be a dinner between Sarkozy and Michel Platini, and surprise, when Michel Platini arrived at the Elysee, Tamim-al-Thani was there.
ZACH
That’s the crown prince who is now the Emir of Qatar with the then President of France, and head of Europe’s soccer governing body.
JEAN-BAPTISTE
At the end of this dinner, we had a special package, an agreement to vote for Qatar to World Cup 2022, the sale of PSG to Qatar and, cherry on the cake, a plan to save the French football.
ZACH
And French football needed saving. In 2010, PSG faced upwards of €50 million in debt, and scandals surrounding the death of a fan, Yann Lorence, at the hands of supporters outside the PSG stadium.
JEAN-BAPTISTE
The deal, um, was to save the French football industry with, uh, the support of Qatari funds. And it worked.
ZACH
There are differing accounts of that meeting at the palace, but it is widely viewed as a turning point that helped Qatar secure the World Cup.
Ten days after this meeting, Qatar is awarded the tournament and they buy PSG, which launches the club into the football stratosphere. And they do it all with almost unlimited Qatari cash.
REPORTER
We’re just going to break away and bring you some breaking news regarding Messi, he has fully agreed the terms on a two-year contract to join Paris Saint-Germain. So there you go.
REPORTER
The football club has given one of its star players, Neymar, permission to discuss a world record transfer deal with Paris Saint-Germain. The French club has been told it must pay. Wait for this, the £198 million fee in full before the Brazilian international can join them.
REPORTER
Arsenal’s manager Arsene Wenger said anything is possible when a country owns a club. It’s beyond the rationality, he said, and Neymar has been bought for Qatari’s national pride.
ZACH
Qatar Sports Investments, part of the country’s massive sovereign wealth fund, spent close to €2 billion on transfer fees, all with the aim of winning the Champions League.
And Nassar Al-Khelaifi is appointed as the club president. He’s a Qatari businessman with close ties to the Emir.
I wanted to know how fans thought about all this so while watching a game at the PSG bar I asked Quentin Coudray and Yannick Laléous.
QUENTIN COUDRAY
I like PSG because they use their money well, like they, they use the money, okay, it’s a bit unfair compared to other clubs, but at least they do some, they build teams that are so beautiful to watch. So at at least it, it kind of like gives some kind of excuse for the big money.
YANNICK LALÉOUS
At the beginning, I’m not sure. PSG was a really French team from Paris and only from Paris. At the beginning, in my opinion, I’m not sure they were, they were very happy. They hope, they hope, but they were, they were not at first time happy. They won, they won, they won every, every year they won. And more they won more people are happy.
ZACH
If there’s one thing you could say to Qatar and Nassar Al Khelaifi, what would it be?
YANNICK
Stay here and continue. And continue. This year is wonderful.
ZACH
And it’s not just fans. A few weeks ago, while receiving PSG’s players at the Elysée, French President Macron was thankful too, he thanked the Emir of Qatar.
FRENCH PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON
Remercier l’Emir du Qatar et tous ceux qui ont permis ce succès comme actionnaires. Vive le PSG, vive la république, et vive la France!
ZACH
Even someone who studies sports and politics like Jean-Baptiste Guégan, feels conflicted about what it costs for his team to win.
JEAN-BAPTISTE
The nature of political tool of the PSG is a real dilemma for me and for us as supporters, because we win and we win a lot. And for the first time we win the Champions League. I was in the stadium. We cried. That’s the problem and that’s our dilemma. I’m a supporter of this club. This is the club of my childhood. The first time I went to the stadium, I was with my father. And for me, it’s a part of myself.
ZACH
He’s not alone. I asked fans about this outside the stadium while they were shopping for merch at the PSG store.
JAMAL
Yeah, so honestly I feel very strongly about sports washing. Rich guys came in, bought the club, bought whoever they saw fit that was gonna lead them to titles. And then pretty much like obviously we’re here now and I feel like it ruins the kind of integrity of the sport really. Like football’s not really about that football at the essence, it’s about it is a working man’s game firstly. And secondly, it’s about building a relationship between players on and off the pitch.
JORDAN ZIEGLER
I think it’s absolutely valid to be concerned about kind of like the sports washing aspect of these questionable organizations from both a human rights perspective, backing massive sports teams and sports leagues to kind of sports wash all those human rights violations that may be committed. You see it with Qatar Airways being a sponsor of major football clubs. Or even like the World Cup being in Qatar in the last World Cup is kind of another perfect example. So I think absolutely it’s something to be wary of especially when you start almost like normalizing these organizations just because they’re like massive sponsors of the sports that we know and love. But at the same time, if you’re a PSG Ultra fan, your morals probably only go so far when like you do get a bring home a Champions League, right? So it’s like, it’s a, it’s a hard tightrope to walk.
ZACH
Jean- Baptiste Guégan sums it up this way.
JEAN-BAPTISTE
The PSG, Paris Saint Germain was a club in failure, with no financial, with no money. So when the, when the Qatar has come, it was a new hope like in Star Wars.
ZACH
And like Star Wars you need the hero’s journey. But it’s hard to tell in this story who is the evil empire.
ANDIE
That was Zach Gaouad in Paris.
And that’s it for this bonus episode.
We have one more coming your way this summer and it’s a conversation with one of the top investigative journalists who looks at sports and corruption.
I sit down with Karim Zidan and he lays out why what we see these days is more than just sportswashing.
KARIM ZIDAN
This is checkbook diplomacy at its finest, because what they make you do is you know just how bad they are, yet you still keep coming, crawling on your hands and knees, begging for that money.”
ANDIE
You can listen to my conversation with Karim Zidan next time on State of Play.
I’m Andie Crossan.
Thanks for listening.
–END–